Dr. Rae Wynn Grant: [00:00:00] Walking through the exhibition hall last year at the Association of Zoos and Aquariums Conference, it was clear there was a unified mission at work. [00:00:08]
AZA attendee: [00:00:09] Everybody here loves animals, that's what we have in common. [00:00:13]
AZA attendee: [00:00:13] There's a special role that we have in taking care of the environment, but also being able to help and create unique moments with each other. It's all about how to better. [00:00:20]
AZA attendee: [00:00:20] care for the animals, right, so that we can get in better touch with the animals. [00:00:23]
Peter Gros: [00:00:26] On today's show, we'll meet people who are taking that enthusiasm and turning it into action to protect some of the most feared and overlooked creatures on our planet. I'm Peter Gross, wildlife expert and educator. [00:00:39]
Dr. Rae Wynn Grant: [00:00:39] And I'm wildlife ecologist Dr. Rae Wynn-Grant, and this is Mutual of Omaha's Wild Kingdom, The Podcast. Episode six, Hope for the Wild, stories from the Association of Zoos and Aquariums Community, Part Two. This is part two of our mini-series that we recorded at the 2024 AZA Annual Conference in Calgary, Canada. [00:01:08][28.6]
Peter Gros: [00:01:09] Thousands of people gathered for seminars and workshops all into the auspices of the association of zoos and aquariums. [00:01:15]
Dr. Rae Wynn Grant: [00:01:16] While at the conference, it was clear that everyone had a deep connection to and love for animals, but there was one person who actually researched how we can translate this passion into conservation efforts. Dr. Kathayoon Khalil studies empathy and the human-animal connection. Plus, she's been a good friend of mine since we were in graduate school together. Okay, you're a conservation psychologist, which I knew, because I'm your friend. But honestly, that is not a traditional role. People know about psychologists, they know about conservation, but they do not know that those two things can go together. So can you better describe what a conservation psychologist is or does or how you do it? [00:01:57]
Dr. Kathayoon Khalil: [00:01:58] As a conservation psychologist, two of the things I'm most interested in are behavior change and feeling empathy for animals. And so we define empathy as basically perspective taking, being able to understand the perspective of another individual, be that a person or an animal, and be able to do your part in making that person or animal's life better. So that's the behavior change piece. So empathy. is a particularly promising pathway to conservation behavior change, because a lot of the behaviors we're asking people to do are very challenging. They are disruptions to their lives, they're changes to the way that they exist, the way their families function, and they have to come from somewhere internal, otherwise they're not gonna stick. [00:02:38]
Dr. Rae Wynn Grant: [00:02:39] Well, and Cathy, and I want to, or I'm sorry, Dr. Khalil, I want you to also get you to talk a little bit about your journey, and that's because I know you, and I know that you're not randomly at the conference for Association of Zoos and Aquariums. Zoos play a big role in your life and how you got into this work. Absolutely. [00:02:58]
Dr. Kathayoon Khalil: [00:03:00] So I grew up in Portland, Oregon. I am a daughter of immigrants. My mother is from Iran My father is from Pakistan and we grew up an all-white community for the most part Going out in nature felt like one of the only places where we could really be ourselves Where we could escape from needing to assimilate to all of the cultural differences that were Around us all the time and so we lived on a beautiful farm on the outskirts of town and I developed my environmental appreciation there early on When it came down to my career, I had three choices. I could be a doctor, a lawyer, or an engineer. And so I chose to be a lawyer and started volunteering at the zoo to get community service hours to satisfy credits that I needed. Very quickly, that turned into a belief that my life would not be the same if I didn't pursue this as my career. Because the people that I was working with cared about saving animals, saving the planet in a way that I had never experienced. It was profound to see someone working on something so much bigger than themselves that would outlive them. [00:04:04]
Dr. Rae Wynn Grant: [00:04:05] On Kathy and second day of college, she changed her major from pre-law to biology, but it didn't feel quite right. [00:04:12]
Dr. Kathayoon Khalil: [00:04:13] because all of a sudden I was out by myself in the field studying lizards, which I was a herpetologist. I love snakes and lizards. But I was so lonely. But then I would come back to the zoo and then talk to people about how awesome these animals were and how they should appreciate them and care for them and not fear them. And then I'd go back to the field and be all alone. And so I was really missing something. There was a disconnect there, well, I wanna do conservation, but I'm just bad at this biology thing. [00:04:39]
Dr. Rae Wynn Grant: [00:04:40] So, Kathy decided to go to graduate school for environmental education at Yale. [00:04:44]
Dr. Kathayoon Khalil: [00:04:45] For the first time in my career, someone tell me, you can do this, and you can do it from the people's side. You can do the human dimensions of wildlife work. That was really profound. [00:04:54]
Dr. Rae Wynn Grant: [00:04:56] Today's, Kathy is vice president and director of the Columbus Center for Wildlife Conservation. [00:05:00]
Dr. Kathayoon Khalil: [00:05:01] I specialize in children. What is it that children need to be able to connect to animals? How do they connect? Where does that happen socially? How do we construct experiences that allow children to be themselves and develop an identity alongside the animals that they're learning with? Zoos to me feel like the best place to do this work, not because we're perfect, but because we have a long way to go and a lot of potential to get there. And for me, it's this community of zoos and aquariums and being able to share with people how. Profoundly impactful we can be, but only if everyone comes together to make that impact. [00:05:36]
Peter Gros: [00:05:37] So many people at the AZA conference had stories of feeling greater connection with wildlife once they got out into the wild, or got up close with animals at their zoos and aquariums. [00:05:47]
Dr. Rae Wynn Grant: [00:05:48] Peter and I have had the same experience. In fact, we found ourselves bonding with Kathy over swimming with whale sharks, something I got to do while taping our NBC show at the Georgia Aquarium. But Peter actually got to swim with them in the wild. [00:06:03]
Dr. Kathayoon Khalil: [00:06:04] Isn't it amazing, it is a magical experience. These animals that are so massive that your body just feels like, not in danger, but just on high alert, right? Cause how can something so big exist in the same space as you? And it gives that feeling that when they're near you, they're choosing to be near you because they do not have to be anywhere in your area. [00:06:27]
Peter Gros: [00:06:28] But you're right, they're the size of a school bus. Your mindset switches from predator to I might be prey. [00:06:34]
Dr. Kathayoon Khalil: [00:06:35] Absolutely. Which I think is a really healthy thing for us to feel sometimes, right? That we live in these rooms where the climate is controlled and our food is brought to us and we can feel so on top of the world, but really we're animals like everyone else. Yes. And we also can go into a place and this is not our world, this is their world. [00:06:56]
Dr. Rae Wynn Grant: [00:06:57] Yeah, I really, I mean, I was in, you know, the tank with whale sharks. Peter was in the ocean, and yet I really felt like I was a visitor or a guest into this ecosystem, and it was very profound, and then the other thing that I noticed was the patterns on the whale sharks, it almost looked like they were painted on. That was very special to me, so much so that I ended up crying. [00:07:21]
Dr. Kathayoon Khalil: [00:07:22] I have that experience with students a lot, that they will get out of the water with a whale shark and just be overcome with those emotions because time moves differently with an animal of that size who's just living their life and allowing you to be in their presence and those spot patterns knowing that every one of them is individual, right? And this is an individual and that so as a researcher on the human-animal connection... That's the number one thing I always come back to is every one of these animals is an individual and that allows us to make unique connections to every one them, that you're not just swimming with a whale shark, you're swimming with this whale shark that has its own life story that you get to be a part of. [00:08:03]
Peter Gros: [00:08:03] Is it sort of a fine line though? Do you find yourself wondering whether we're anthropomorphizing? [00:08:07]
Dr. Kathayoon Khalil: [00:08:12] We talk about anthropomorphism a lot in this work, and it is not a dirty word to us. So anthropomorphism is a natural way that humans connect to animals. The way that it becomes dangerous is when people lack knowledge and anthropomorphize their own experiences and perspectives instead of trying to understand the unique experiences and perspectives of the animals. So for example, we have octopus at the aquarium, and people will look at an octopus sometimes and say, Oh, that octopus is all alone. They must be sad, because if I were all alone, I would be sad. But that's the job of our educators, is to come in and say, I'm so glad to hear you showing concern for our animals. It's not an actually, it's not a replacement or a dismissal. Thank you for showing concern. What I'd love for you to know about octopus is that this is what they prefer. While we may be sad when we're alone, octopus are not. So this octopus is quite happy, and here's how we know. that they are thriving in this environment. So that's how we use empathy to draw people into what it actually feels like to be an octopus instead of what it feels like to be a human watching an octopus, expecting the octopus to act like a human. [00:09:20]
Peter Gros: [00:09:23] When we make assumptions about animals, it can get in the way of caring for them and knowing what they need to thrive. The work Cathy Youn is doing as a conservation psychologist to cultivate empathy is so interesting and makes so much sense intuitively. [00:09:38]
Dr. Rae Wynn Grant: [00:09:40] While we were at the AZA conference, we met another woman who's trying to bridge the human-animal divide. Sarah Lynn Bowser's mission is to help people connect to and feel comfortable around some of the world's less understood animals. [00:09:54]
Sarah Bowser: [00:09:55] As much as I love tarantulas, I also love any animal that got called a creepy crawly or an animal got called gross or ugly. I'm a really big fan of vultures and opossums and bats and snakes. And so a lot of the work that I do is helping to help our guests and our students connect with animals that everybody thinks are creepy or scary and get them to see them in a kind of a new way. [00:10:18]
Peter Gros: [00:10:18] When we spoke to her, Sarah was the programs manager for ambassador animals at the Oakland Zoo. [00:10:23]
Sarah Bowser: [00:10:24] which means that I have a really cool opportunity to consistently work with animals in a very public setting with people who might be nervous around them. We have to have really cool experiences, including working with two ambassador tarantulas, one of which is an Arizona blonde. Her name is Sonora. So she is also species found in California. As well as Eldora, she is a Chaco golden knee. So we actually have tarantulas that represent North America as well as South America. [00:10:51]
Peter Gros: [00:10:52] And do you have a favorite tarantula fact that you might want to share with us? [00:10:55]
Sarah Bowser: [00:10:55] I have so many tarantula facts. Picking a favorite is really difficult. One of my favorite things about them that really kind of surrounds smaller facts is how sensitive tarantulas are. Not only they are covered in all of these hairs and those hairs help pick up chemicals, they pick up sound, they pick everything from touch to where even a researcher back in like 1883 out of Germany called them hearing hairs because he watched tarantula's hair move moved to the sound of a violin. So, they're really cool, they're very sensitive animals. [00:11:28]
Peter Gros: [00:11:28] Yeah, I think they're one of the most misunderstood animals. Yes. And you are in direct contact with the public, changing fear into knowledge, hopefully. Yeah. What are some of the common questions that you get about tarantulas? [00:11:39]
Sarah Bowser: [00:11:39] Is it going to bite me? Is it gonna bite you? With tarantulas especially, are they going to jump at me. People do think that they're about to kind of just launch themselves. One of my favorite kind of interactions with Sonora. So she is our Arizona blonde, they're called that because they have these blonde hairs. She is about the size of a half dollar. She's really young. She could live to be 30, 35 years old. So we hopefully have a really long life with her. But there was a day where we were teaching with her and she was sitting in my palm and she did not move a muscle. And everybody asked me if she was real. Everybody asked me how I trained her to do that. And getting to kind of break down the fact that this is just what she does. If she feels safe, she'll stay. Our slightly larger tarantula, our door, the charcoal golden knee. She takes up about the majority of my palms. So we usually need about two hands to be able to work with her safely. She tends to be more adventurous. So getting to kinda watch her move. It is in this slow motion. And my favorite thing watching them, is they take their legs and you watch them gently tap and tap on a place they might walk onto. And then you just see this really cautious movement, thinking about everywhere that they're going and what they're doing. And usually the longer that people get to watch them, the less concerned they are. [00:12:52]
Peter Gros: [00:12:52] Oh, I must admit, you're the first person I've ever met who can interpret a tarantula's mood. [00:12:57]
Dr. Rae Wynn Grant: [00:12:57] Do you have some kind of personal connection? [00:12:59]
Sarah Bowser: [00:12:59] to tarantulas? I grew up in a household where everybody was terrified of spiders and frogs and snakes, so I actually didn't get to work with a lot of these animals until I was an adult. I think that everyone who works with animals has one that they are nervous around or that they have some weird feelings about, and if they don't I feel like they're lying to themselves or to you. Mine also growing up, especially was cockroaches. I grew up in south Georgia. They found you no matter where you were. They flew, you know, and so it made a lot of sense to me like with that upbringing to where that's not an animal that I take a lot of conscious effort to work with consistently, but it's something that I think takes a conscious effort because especially as humans, I always tell people that there's no shame in feeling bad about this because we are kind of predisposed to not like them. It might take time for you to feel differently. [00:13:47]
Dr. Rae Wynn Grant: [00:13:49] There is an animal that freaks me out, only one in the world. And it's not small, actually, it's a giant. So giant squid, I cannot handle them. Like, I don't like thinking about them very much. But you are actually inspiring me to maybe become more acquainted with giant squid however one does that, and possibly get over my fear little by little. And even if you have. [00:14:09]
Sarah Bowser: [00:14:09] fear it's okay. Tapping into why you're nervous and understanding your fear I think is helpful especially when it comes to animals that their lives become at risk when we're afraid of them. That's when I really would push people to ask more questions. [00:14:23]
Peter Gros: [00:14:25] Interrogating our ingrained fears of animals can be a way of building empathy for those we label as dangerous. But what about animals we don't think about at all? [00:14:34]
Dr. Rae Wynn Grant: [00:14:35] We've talked in other podcast episodes about how animals living underwater, like manatees and right whales, are often in danger because we just don't see them. Out of sight, out of mind means they often get hit by boats or caught in fishing ropes. At the AZA conference, we met one biologist whose mission is to promote the well-being of freshwater fish who don't get much attention. [00:14:57]
Thom Demas: [00:14:58] In these mountain streams, there are a myriad of amazing little fish, and a lot of times people see these stream fish and think, wow, they're kind of bland and boring. [00:15:08]
Peter Gros: [00:15:09] Tom DeMoss is Vice President, Chief Husbandry and Exhibits Officer at the Tennessee Aquarium in Chattanooga. [00:15:15]
Thom Demas: [00:15:16] to eat these little fish so they blend in but when it comes breeding season and the temperature swings the daylight changes they come into their breeding colors and it's just like a peacock showing off to try to get a mate it's the same thing with these little fish they want to look beautiful the chub wants to build the best nest to get the best female he builds this mound of rocks to nest on and the river chub comes into nest but then so do all these other fish and a lot of them are the shiners the saffron shiner the Warp Paint Shiner. the Tennessee Dace, a lot of these fish come in and you get this spectrum of colors you would never believe. You would think you had to go to a coral reef to see it, but you can see it in these mountain streams. This? [00:15:57]
Dr. Rae Wynn Grant: [00:15:57] This is really something. You're telling us about mountain streams, beautiful mountain streams. But place us, you know, what's the geography here? Where in the world are we? [00:16:06]
Thom Demas: [00:16:06] Sure, Appalachia. The Appalachian Mountains run from mid-Alabama all the way up Pennsylvania that direction. In the case of the animals I'm talking about, some of them are endemic to our area, and we're in Chattanooga, Tennessee. It's one of the hottest spots in the world for biodiversity. And, you know, some of the streams are pretty small, but there's an entire world below the surface that people don't realize is there. Well, I can tell you're passionate about this. Can you tell me what your personal connection is with them? Well, I tell you, we all have a personal connection really, especially in that part of the country. These fish live in the headwaters of the Tennessee River. They live in all these little streams. They live in the water that becomes our potable drinking water. Think about these fish are indicators in this stream. If the stream doesn't support the fish, doesn't support the life, might not be the water we wanna be drinking. So they're wonderful indicators of how our ecosystem is thriving or not. But when you think about that little fish as an indicator, whether or not the water is safe to drink or to swim in, kind of changes your thoughts about the whole environment and the whole system. [00:17:10]
Dr. Rae Wynn Grant: [00:17:10] The way that Tom talks about fostering understanding and empathy for these fish really brings home how threats to the environment affect us all, wildlife and humans. At the Tennessee Aquarium, they've spent time really researching how these fish live and replicating that in a 22-foot long stream. [00:17:29]
Thom Demas: [00:17:29] That exhibit opened March of 2023, and in April of 2024, we had a spawning event. Probably the first time these fish have ever spawned in captivity. And now that we know what we need to do to recreate their environment and understand more authentically how a stream works, it's not just water flowing by. Now that we're understanding that and seeing the fish begin to breed, we may be able to maintain those populations. Let me give you an example. Right now, our research from the Tennessee Aquarium Conservation Institute has brought in about 200 laurel days. They're only found in a little area above Chattanooga up on the ridge called Walden's Ridge. The streams have dried up. They had to go rescue them, and we brought those fish in before they died. We definitely have the lion's share of laurel dates that exist. And so when the stream comes back, we'll be able to put them back. [00:18:22]
Peter Gros: [00:18:23] It's just incredible to me you've been able to recreate this natural environment in human care and already they're reproducing. Yeah, absolutely. Our folks hit the ball out of the park on this one. The stream at the aquarium isn't just a backup system for endangered species, it also allows people to see these beautiful fish up close, which will hopefully inspire people to protect them. [00:18:46]
Dr. Rae Wynn Grant: [00:18:47] What are more of the threats that they're facing in the wild? [00:18:50]
Thom Demas: [00:18:51] I will never sit here and say we shouldn't use the land to support ourselves because that's okay but we have to do it responsibly. So you think about someone who's running a farm and to get their crops to grow maybe they're fertilizing. Well, the runoff from that can get into these streams and it carries with it the compounds that are used for fertilizing which makes the water very fertile, which causes algae to grow, which causes problems. something else is showing up we've done a little bit of work with in freshwater. is microplastics. They're finding their way into the ocean. We know all about that, but a lot of them are getting in the seawater because they're traveling through the freshwater streams and rivers to get there. Those are probably the biggest threats. Can you describe some of the work that's being done? All these streams really are imperiled and we actually are finding money where we can talk to the landowners and talk to them about how we've got to protect these waterways. Your cattle need the water. so. let us help you with money, so that you can protect the stream that's on your land and also get water for your cattle. And you know, and that's something I wanna say, people like, well, why does one little fish matter? Those fish represent health in the stream. So if we can make sure they stay healthy, we can ensure we have healthy drinking water. And that really rings true to people. If we can get people on board with this, we can save a lot of streams and a lot of animals. [00:20:15]
Peter Gros: [00:20:17] economically you think is sustainable for people who do make a living in the land as well as a balance of nature being able to survive. You think there is this balance between the two that can happen? [00:20:26]
Thom Demas: [00:20:27] I do. I think it's not as easy as I wish it were, but I do believe it's sustainable. I'm willing to pay a little bit more for eggs, where the chickens are free range, because that's important to me. And I think if we all begin to recognize the value of the animals, the value the system, and the fact that the earth is finite, right? There's only so much land and the planet is only so big. And if we begin to respect that, it doesn't mean we don't live here too, and it doesn't mean we can't be consumers, but if we can do that responsibly, we can all be here. And I do believe, I do belief there's going to be a mind shift if those of us that are working at this stay after it. These fish are living in that water that ultimately ends up coming out of the tap in my kitchen. And it is the source of our lifeblood. We can go without food for a while. We can't go without water for very long. Everything needs water. It's something we all share. [00:21:21]
Dr. Rae Wynn Grant: [00:21:25] Each of today's guests has such a tangible message about how to cultivate understanding and empathy for animals. It's really inspiring. [00:21:33]
Peter Gros: [00:21:34] Whether you're diving with whale sharks, observing insects making their way through the world, or watching our TV show, Mutual of Omaha's Wild Kingdom Protecting the Wild, we hope you all feel compelled to find ways to connect with animals and nature. [00:21:50]
Dr. Rae Wynn Grant: [00:21:50] While we made a brief mention of whale sharks today, next week we'll devote the entire episode to these gentle giants. [00:21:55]
Kelly Link: [00:21:57] I was taking pictures of one of them and I turned around and there was another one right behind me and I just had to like flare my body to the surface to just get clear of it because it didn't it was so focused on feeding it didn' like it didn''t even register that I was there. [00:22:11]
Peter Gros: [00:22:11] Thank you for listening to this episode of Mutual of Omaha's Wild Kingdom, The Podcast. And remember, if we protect wildlife and the environment today, we can ensure magical moments in the wild kingdom for generations. Mutual of Omaha's Wild Kingdom, the podcast, is a production of Pineapple Street Studios and Mutual of Omaha. Our senior producer is Stephen Key. Producers are Elliot Adler and Jenny Van Soelen. [00:22:48]
Dr. Rae Wynn Grant: [00:22:49] Associate producer is Lisa Cerda. Editor is Darby Maloney. Executive producers are Barry Finkel, Gabrielle Lewis, and Jen Wulf. Pineapple's head of sound and engineering is Raj Makhija. Senior audio engineers are Marina Pais, Davy Sumner, Javi Cruces, and Pedro Alvira. This episode was mixed by Davy Summer. [00:23:12]
Peter Gros: [00:23:13] production music courtesy of Epidemic Sound and Hearst Media Production Group. [00:23:17]
Dr. Rae Wynn Grant: [00:23:17] Episode Clips, courtesy of Hearst Media Production Group. Marketing and promotion by Emily Poeschl. This podcast is hosted by me, Dr. Rae Wynn-Grant. [00:23:27]
Peter Gros: [00:23:28] Peter Gross, a special thanks to Katelyn Williams, Sophie Radmelamich, and Stephanie Diaz. [00:23:33]
Dr. Rae Wynn Grant: [00:23:34] Today's episode is based on the Mutual of Omaha's Wild Kingdom series created by Don Meier. Our next episode will be out in a week. [00:23:42]
Peter Gros: [00:23:43] Make sure you listen on the Odyssey app, or wherever you get your podcasts. [00:23:43]
